13:09:36 <heidie> #startmeeting
13:09:36 <Services> Meeting started Mon Sep 22 13:09:36 2014 UTC.  The chair is heidie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:09:36 <Services> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:10:19 <stoney> hello
13:10:21 <heidie> Hi folks,
13:10:29 <heidie> #topic Updates
13:10:34 <heidie> What have folks been doing.
13:10:56 <heidie> #info I have assigned homework for students to synchronize the bugs between Bugzilla and github.
13:10:58 <stoney> #info edited the proposed contributor workflow
13:11:24 <stoney> #link https://titanpad.com/mtworkflow
13:11:26 <kevin-brown> #info I started/edited the proposed contributor workflow
13:11:43 <heidie> This is great!
13:11:55 * heidie reads
13:12:37 <stoney> I like the idea of moving the enhancements and bugs from github to bugzilla
13:13:00 <heidie> Yes, all in the spirit of being transparent.
13:13:17 <heidie> So item 6 on the workflow.
13:13:46 <heidie> Are we saying that contributions to Bugzilla don't have to be in the form of a patch?
13:14:07 * stoney looking
13:14:23 <stoney> right… there are two ways to contribute
13:14:26 <stoney> with a patch
13:14:29 <stoney> or with a pull request
13:15:10 <heidie> I think that is OK.
13:15:24 <stoney> pull request = a message in the ticket on bugzilla with a pointer to the remote repo
13:15:46 <stoney> and that pointer might be to a github style pull request
13:17:05 <stoney> are we past updates?
13:17:16 <heidie> No, sorry
13:17:43 <heidie> I'm still thinking about pull requests and whether that is OK with GNOME.
13:17:58 <heidie> I'm very conscious of wanting to keep with community conventions.
13:18:17 <stoney> right… but let’s finish updates and then we can discuss
13:18:39 <heidie> OK,
13:19:14 <heidie> #info Next assignment is to have students make a small change and submit back.
13:19:23 <heidie> Therefore the process for submitting back is important.
13:19:27 <stoney> right
13:19:29 <heidie> And I'm done with updates.
13:19:32 <stoney> :)
13:19:35 <stoney> sorry to push :)
13:19:43 <heidie> Is "roadblocks" next?
13:19:48 <stoney> sure
13:19:54 <heidie> #topic Roadblocks
13:20:36 <stoney> #info no roadblocks except for time (but that’s also because I don’t have any official plans to work on MT right now)
13:20:45 <heidie> Sure, OK.
13:20:49 <heidie> #info none for me.
13:20:58 <kevin-brown> #info I have no current roadblocks
13:21:32 <heidie> Stoney, what is the next topic in the sequence? Sorry, I've forgotten. Is it "discussion"?
13:21:46 <stoney> probably next steps
13:21:53 <stoney> plans?
13:21:57 <stoney> something like that :)
13:22:08 <heidie> #topic Next Steps
13:22:09 <stoney> then discussion
13:22:25 <heidie> Ah, OK, got it
13:22:26 <stoney> #info none for me, unless something pops up and I have time
13:22:38 <heidie> #info Next step is to have students go through the process of contributing back.
13:22:41 <kevin-brown> #info I am planning on figuring out how to get OpenCV 3 installed without building it from the source
13:23:01 <stoney> oooo cooooool!
13:23:39 <heidie> Yes, cool!
13:24:12 <heidie> Any other next steps?
13:24:25 <stoney> nope
13:24:48 <stoney> although you did mention that your students are also moving over issues
13:24:49 <heidie> #topic Discussion
13:24:58 <heidie> So back to the idea of  pull requests.
13:25:01 <stoney> yup
13:25:02 <heidie> #link https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/GitHub
13:25:23 <stoney> and you were wondering about pull requests with GNOME community
13:26:09 <heidie> So it looks like pull requests are not supported, but reviewing on github is.
13:26:09 <kevin-brown> Right, I believe that page makes it clear that pull requests to the GNOME mirrors will be ignored, as they are only mirrors
13:26:49 <stoney> right … so when I say “pull request” it may not mean a pull-request in the GitHub sense
13:27:03 <stoney> if I have a public repository
13:27:05 <stoney> and I do some work
13:27:13 <stoney> when I’m ready to contribute
13:27:36 <stoney> I would reply to the issue and provide a link to my repo and branch
13:27:39 <stoney> and as you to pull
13:27:43 <stoney> thus a pull request
13:27:56 <stoney> that’s what GitHub means too… but they have codified it
13:28:24 <stoney> in short… you can do “pull requests” outside of GitHub
13:28:46 <stoney> (just not GitHub’s swoopty cool code review)
13:28:57 <stoney> (unless you’ve got another swoopty cool tool)
13:29:12 <heidie> Ummm, yes, but then the review stuff isn't on Bugzilla.
13:29:24 <stoney> that’s true
13:29:33 <stoney> but there is a link to where it is
13:29:34 <heidie> The results of the review and any conversation about changes that needed to be made.
13:29:41 <stoney> and that link is on bugzilla
13:30:26 <stoney> and if you really wanted to leave feedback on bugzilla, nothing would prevent that
13:30:31 <heidie> I think I'd like Joanie's input on this.
13:30:56 <heidie> Joanie? Got time for a question?
13:31:57 <heidie> I don't mean to be obstructionist, I'm just trying to feel my way along the balance of development for students and aligning with the GNOME community.
13:32:56 <joanie> heidie: sorry walked away for a moment
13:32:58 <joanie> wassup?
13:33:19 <heidie> No fuss. We're having a discussion about protocol and Bugzilla.
13:33:30 <heidie> We've outlined a process for student development. https://wiki.gnome.org/Sysadmin/GitHub
13:33:34 <heidie> Sorry, wrong link
13:33:42 <heidie> https://titanpad.com/mtworkflow
13:33:47 * joanie looks
13:34:45 <heidie> And then if you read back 20 or so lines from when I pinged you for the discussion.
13:34:49 <kevin-brown> Er, I was under the impression that we've been discussing the general contributor guide, not necessarily tied to a specific class
13:35:18 <joanie> re 5, I wouldn't do that
13:35:27 <heidie> kevin-brown: Either.
13:35:33 <joanie> If I saw that in a bug re Orca, I'd ignore it
13:35:41 <joanie> until a patch appeared attached to that bug
13:35:49 <heidie> Ah, OK.
13:35:55 <joanie> what you do is up to you
13:36:20 <heidie> So is this a maintainer's decision?
13:36:22 <stoney> right… so it’s the maintainers choice
13:36:30 <joanie> Reading further, I'd delete step 5
13:36:37 <joanie> that's a class workflow thing imho
13:36:43 <joanie> stoney: yes and no
13:36:51 * heidie is still figuring out what is maintainer's choice and what goes against GNOME rules.
13:36:51 <joanie> GNOME does not accept pull requests officially
13:37:16 <heidie> joanie: by "class", you mean university class, yes?
13:37:24 <joanie> as a maintainer, arguably you can do what you want. But the rest of us might frown at you.
13:37:30 <joanie> yes heidie
13:37:35 <stoney> because GNOME official rejects pull requests? or because they only mention patches?
13:37:47 <heidie> :-) Ummm, so what is the penalty implied by frowns?
13:38:05 <joanie> if you were a core module, you'd probably need to change
13:38:11 <heidie> Ah, OK.
13:38:40 <stoney> is there a reason they don’t accept pull request? other than they don’t like it?
13:38:51 <heidie> Is the worry that the development isn't transparent? That by having everything on Bugzilla that all information is in one location?
13:38:52 <joanie> we have working infrastructure
13:38:57 <joanie> github ain't it
13:39:20 <joanie> using multiple infrastructures just fractures things and confuses contributors and maintainers
13:39:28 * heidie notes that we're not trying to subvert GNOME culture
13:39:42 <joanie> you can't/won't subvert it
13:39:44 <heidie> ah, got it.
13:39:46 <heidie> :-)
13:39:51 <joanie> you might not be accepted as a core module however
13:39:52 <heidie> Wouldn't want to try! :-)
13:40:05 <joanie> and bug triagers might respond to one of your students with "this is not how we do things."
13:40:13 <heidie> Ah, yes, that has impact.
13:40:25 <joanie> gnome has triagers that are not module maintainers/developers
13:40:26 <heidie> Thank you, this is helpful.
13:40:30 <heidie> Right, yes.
13:40:46 <joanie> so you can confuse your students and community and make upstream frown
13:40:55 <heidie> This gives me a better picture of the situation.
13:40:57 <joanie> or you can separate out your class/course workflow from upstream
13:41:13 <joanie> separate == only students know/see/can read step 5
13:41:19 <joanie> were it me, I'd do that
13:41:20 <joanie> :)
13:41:40 <heidie> Right, yes, we'll likely do that until they get their feet underneath them.
13:41:47 <joanie> again, we're not trying to break your course workflow
13:41:47 <heidie> students, that is.
13:41:48 <stoney> there would still be a problem with multiple contributors in a patch, but sure
13:41:59 <joanie> stoney: how so?
13:42:16 <heidie> Right, yes, getting course workflow and gnome workflow to synch is interesting.
13:42:22 <joanie> in the end there should be *a* patch
13:42:34 <joanie> that doesn't prevent people from commenting
13:42:35 <heidie> With *one* name
13:42:37 <stoney> well, if multiple student contribute, and we have to squash to a single patch, don’t we loose multiple authors?
13:42:39 <joanie> or providing alternatives
13:42:53 <joanie> there's commit comments for that
13:42:59 <stoney> ok
13:43:05 <joanie> or you do multiple patches
13:43:11 <joanie> that's an implementation detail
13:43:12 <joanie> ;)
13:43:17 * heidie laughs
13:44:17 <heidie> Thank you Joanie for the clarification.
13:44:28 <joanie> sure. hope I'm not being a drag/pain.
13:44:39 <heidie> Nope, a help as always!
13:44:49 <heidie> And are you going to be able to join us at POSSE in November?
13:44:59 <joanie> probably
13:45:05 <joanie> but Novemeber is ages from now
13:45:17 <heidie> Ok, thanks.
13:45:18 <heidie> :-)
13:45:27 <joanie> if it doesn't involve overseas I worry about it that month typically ;)
13:45:31 <heidie> Are there any other questions on the pull/patch issue?
13:45:33 <joanie> and sometimes even when it does
13:45:42 <heidie> Right, :-)
13:46:20 <joanie> ok, i'm walking away again. ping me if you need me
13:46:26 <heidie> And back to the meeting... Are there any other items for discussion?
13:49:09 <stoney> yes
13:49:21 <heidie> ?
13:49:27 <stoney> I propose that once the issues have been moved to bugzilla...
13:49:44 <stoney> that we dissolve the GNOME-MouseTrap organization on GitHub...
13:50:07 <heidie> I'm OK with that.
13:50:24 <stoney> because it implies that it is GNOME’s but it ultimately is an independent organization that happens to contribute  to MouseTrap
13:50:48 <stoney> That will avoid confusion of where to put bug reports
13:51:06 <stoney> and who has authority over the github project
13:51:38 <heidie> Yes, we'll need to move all of the stuff to GNOME.
13:52:17 <heidie> I can get students to do that.
13:52:55 <stoney> but back on the other topic… so we are removing any notion of an external, public repo, and pull requests from the contributor guide, true?
13:53:06 <heidie> Yes.
13:53:19 <heidie> I think so.
13:54:38 <heidie> OK, this will be a fairly big shift in our process.
13:54:48 <heidie> More so for stoney and kevin-brown  I think.
13:56:36 <kevin-brown> I think once we get it written down and standardized, we will be better off
13:56:52 <heidie> Yes, right.
13:57:16 <heidie> Sounds like it might make sense to sit down and figure out what to move where.
13:57:22 <heidie> OK, I've got a skype call at 10 so I'm going to need to go.
13:57:49 <heidie> I'll catch up with folks to talk about migration of information.
13:57:51 <heidie> Sorry to run!
13:57:56 <heidie> #endmeeting