14:05:34 <joanie> #startmeeting
14:05:34 <Services> Meeting started Thu Aug 21 14:05:34 2014 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:05:34 <Services> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:05:45 <joanie> #topic Progress Towards 3.14
14:05:47 <joanie> I'll start
14:06:05 <joanie> #info Joanie is continuing to rewrite Orca's support for Gecko and making great progress.
14:06:12 <joanie> #info New feature: Support for clickables.
14:06:21 <joanie> #info New feature: Support for longdescs.
14:06:43 <joanie> #info New feature: Support for structural navigation for images/graphics.
14:07:05 <joanie> #info New feature: Automatically present accessible descriptions so users don't have to guess a description might be there and ask for it.
14:07:24 <joanie> #info New feature: Browse mode and Focus mode for more reliable and predictable user experience.
14:07:49 <joanie> #info Bug fixes: Eliminating stickage, loops, and jumping past content
14:08:22 <clown> joanie has been busy.
14:08:26 <clown> :-)
14:08:34 <joanie> #info Joanie is not done yet. There are still bugs. And the caching of content has been temporarily disabled so that Joanie can eliminate that as a source of bugs in content presentation. It will be restored before stable ships.
14:08:42 <joanie> done
14:08:45 <joanie> mgorse: your turn
14:09:01 <mgorse> #info mgorse has fixed an AT-SPI crash that shows up when using a match rule that matches on interfaces
14:09:14 * joanie cheers for mgorse
14:09:17 <joanie> thanks!!
14:09:40 <jjmarin> well done both of you !!! :-)
14:09:46 <mgorse> #info also trying to look at performance issues on thunderbird bbut having trouble reproducing
14:09:46 <mgorse> done
14:09:53 <joanie> mgorse: I do have a question for you
14:10:11 <joanie> are you planning to put the crash fix back into 2.12 or 2.10?
14:10:25 <joanie> I don't want to bump orca's deps just for that fix
14:10:37 <joanie> unless you put it back into earlier stables
14:10:39 <mgorse> Hmm. Why? Are you planning new orca releases? I haven't pushed it to the branches yet but could easily do so
14:10:54 <joanie> currently orca does not depend on the very latest at-spi2 stuff
14:11:02 <joanie> and with all the changes I'm doing wrt gecko
14:11:11 <mgorse> Do you think I should make new releases with the fix?
14:11:12 <joanie> we have users of 3.10 and 3.12 using orca master
14:11:16 <joanie> yes please
14:11:35 <joanie> asking them -- and their distros -- to pick up the fix in stable is reasonable of me/us
14:11:50 <joanie> it's not urgent
14:12:01 <mgorse> ok
14:12:07 <joanie> thanks!!
14:12:16 <joanie> next unstable cycle I think I will bump deps a bit
14:12:29 <joanie> but I want users to have all the gecko fixes -- and to be testing them now
14:12:49 <joanie> as for the tbird stuff, later perhaps I could help you
14:12:55 <joanie> I do think it's the tree re-building
14:13:07 <joanie> as I linked to in the mozilla bug
14:13:15 <joanie> do you think that is indeed it?
14:13:26 <mgorse> Do you know if I need to have a large number of *unread* messages in order to see it?
14:13:35 <joanie> doesn't have to be unread
14:13:39 <joanie> the trick is the large number
14:13:40 <mgorse> hmm
14:13:46 <joanie> like thousands and thousands
14:14:00 <mgorse> was testing with an account with like 2k. not sure if that's enough
14:14:06 <joanie> it's not
14:14:16 <joanie> I think I had to do 10k or maybe more
14:14:18 <joanie> it's in my OR
14:14:54 <joanie> anyhoo, other things on this topic?
14:15:33 <joanie> if not, and since API isn't here to talk about wayland hell, ...
14:15:37 <joanie> #topic W3C updates
14:15:41 <joanie> clown?
14:15:49 <clown> One thing...
14:16:06 <joanie> on previous topic or this one?
14:16:15 <clown> W3C topic.
14:16:17 <joanie> k
14:16:30 <clown> #info There is a role in the aria specification for definitions.  See:  http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#definition
14:16:47 <clown> #info But, there is no corresponding role="term".
14:17:06 <clown> #info A proposal is to add the term role, but that proposal is in its early stages.
14:17:33 <clown> #info However, if it goes through, what ATK/AT-SPI role would support "term"?  Or is a new role added?
14:17:35 <clown> done.
14:17:37 <joanie> An object that represents the term, or name, part of a term-description group in a description list. Since : ATK-2.12
14:17:48 <clown> Cool.
14:17:52 <joanie> https://developer.gnome.org/atk/stable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole
14:17:54 <clown> info that?
14:18:00 <joanie> ok
14:18:43 <joanie> #info also ATK_ROLE_DESCRIPTION_LIST
14:18:59 <joanie> #info this is already in ATK stable
14:19:08 <clown> that looks like a mirro of <dl>, <dt>, and <dd> HTML elements.
14:19:12 <clown> *mirror
14:19:17 <joanie> #link https://developer.gnome.org/atk/stable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole
14:19:37 <joanie> it should work though
14:19:42 <joanie> right?
14:19:56 <clown> Okay.  I now know what to do when it comes to the mappings document.  Thanks!
14:20:01 <joanie> thank you
14:20:29 <joanie> clown: anything else?
14:20:40 <clown> that's all from me on this topic.
14:20:48 <joanie> I have a couple of quick announcements then
14:21:03 <joanie> #info Igalia has just nominated Joanie to the W3C HTML WG.
14:21:20 <joanie> #info Joanie will now ask to join the HTML A11y Task Force.
14:21:38 <joanie> #info Apple does not much care for longdesc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html
14:21:52 <joanie> #info Joanie doesn't object to it, but has serious concerns.
14:22:24 <joanie> #info Joanie is currently writing up those concerns with proposed language for the spec for the W3C's consideration and will submit them later today.
14:22:28 <joanie> done
14:22:41 <joanie> questions?
14:22:46 <clown> #info  addendum:  Apple also does not much care for aria-describedat:  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat
14:23:11 <joanie> I'll have to look at that
14:23:22 <joanie> the longdesc one is an epic rant
14:23:30 <joanie> but with many valid issues identified
14:23:38 <clown> #info aria-describedat is a general attribute for providing a link to a description.
14:23:52 <jjmarin> longemail :-)
14:23:53 <clown> #info whereas longdesc can be used only with the <img> elements
14:24:45 <clown> you longdesc email is an epic rant.  Or Apple's?  Actually Apple's email is long.
14:24:48 <clown> *your
14:24:54 <joanie> Apple's
14:25:05 <joanie> mind is going to be short and contain proposed spec language
14:25:15 * clown loves a short mind.
14:25:28 <clown> hey jhernandez!
14:25:29 <joanie> anyhoo, other w3c stuff?
14:25:41 <joanie> I want to finish my draft before the TF meeting
14:25:42 <jhernandez> :)
14:25:44 <joanie> so they can discuss it
14:25:50 <joanie> #topic Marketing
14:25:55 <joanie> jjmarin: ?
14:26:06 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo added the accessibility support in Evince in the script of the GNOME 3.14 release video https://wiki.gnome.org/BastianIls%C3%B8/ReleaseVideoG3.14
14:26:12 <jjmarin> done !
14:26:17 <jjmarin> short ! :-)
14:26:17 <joanie> heh
14:26:18 <joanie> thanks
14:26:19 <joanie> questions?
14:26:37 <joanie> going once....
14:26:48 <joanie> going twice....
14:26:55 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
14:26:57 <joanie> anyone?
14:27:04 <clown> One thing.
14:27:39 <clown> #info Joseph was contacted by Meg Ford regarding a question about what happened to GNOME's inverse high contrast theme.
14:27:40 * jhernandez raises his hand up
14:28:15 <clown> #info Meg had previsously been contacted by Michael Lavers who is trying to resurrection that them.
14:28:54 <clown> #info Joseph replied that his memory is that the magnifieirs inverse vidoe was considered the replacement of the theme, but was not entirely sure.
14:29:20 <clown> #info Here is a link to  the new theme work:  https://github.com/kolanos/gnome-high-contrast-inverse-theme
14:29:55 <clown> #info Question: is it worth posting Meg's question to the a11y list to find out why the theme was removed, and give direcction to Michael?
14:29:56 <clown> done.
14:30:10 * jjmarin wonder how this can connect with the global dark theme
14:30:18 <jjmarin> woners
14:30:21 <jjmarin> wonders
14:30:24 <jjmarin> :-)
14:30:30 <clown> me too :)
14:30:36 <clown> what is the "global dark theme"?
14:30:43 <joanie> clown: you could certainly ask on the ml
14:31:07 <joanie> clown: if you get gnome-tweak-tool
14:31:34 <joanie> you can have it switch all gtk+ 3 stuff to be darker background with white(ish) foreground
14:31:48 <joanie> the darker is a greyish shade
14:31:57 <clown> okay.  I'll basically forward the main content of meg and michael's email and my limited response.
14:32:00 <joanie> not dark enough, but I find it makes my eyes bleed less ;)
14:32:15 <API> clown, just a short comment to not make the meeting long, but using my own memory
14:32:27 <API> magnifier inverse video mode was considered a replacement
14:32:27 <API> yes
14:32:31 <API> but one of the reasons
14:32:47 <API> is because the theme replaced itself was not really well maintained
14:33:13 <API> so it would be better to have just a small amount of themes well maintained and the magnifier
14:33:22 <API> that several themes poorly maintained
14:33:23 <API> anyway
14:33:29 <API> yes, it would be better an email
14:33:43 <API> and doing research before answering, as Im talking by memory too
14:34:02 <clown> makes sense.  But the github project looks like an attempt, at least, to make a well maintained theme.  Whether it works out that way...
14:34:44 <clown> okay, I'll send out the email sometime today or tomorrow.
14:34:53 <jjmarin> Maybe a global darkER theme + inverted icons = inversed high constrast theme ?
14:35:32 <clown> where inverted icons == inverted black/white (colours remain the same)?
14:36:34 <jjmarin> inverted icon is not accurate
14:36:54 <jjmarin> high contrast icons is more appropiate
14:37:07 <clown> ah, okay.
14:37:16 <jjmarin> meg did a lot of this icons AFAIR
14:37:47 <clown> yes, I have some memory of that, but it's been years.
14:38:02 * joanie waits
14:38:20 <clown> I'm done.  I'm satsified.  I know what I'm doing in this regard.
14:38:25 <joanie> :)
14:38:33 * joanie wants to get back to w3c/longdesc
14:38:41 <joanie> jhernandez: you had something (quick)?
14:38:50 <jhernandez> well
14:38:56 <jhernandez> not sure if it's quick
14:38:58 <jhernandez> it's about testing wayland
14:39:07 <joanie> jhernandez: aha, ping API :)
14:39:11 <jhernandez> hah
14:39:12 <jhernandez> ok
14:39:19 <joanie> API btw I didn't report your issues during this meeting
14:39:19 <API> nightmares
14:39:25 <joanie> if you want to do so, ....
14:39:30 <jhernandez> API: do you want me to ping you by mail, IRC, ... ?
14:39:43 <API> via email
14:39:48 <jhernandez> API: ok
14:39:50 <jhernandez> will do that
14:39:54 <API> in any case as joanie pointed them, as an introduction to your questions
14:39:56 <jhernandez> joanie: I'm done then
14:40:05 <joanie> #endmeeting