14:04:58 <joanie> #startmeeting
14:04:58 <Services> Meeting started Thu Jun 12 14:04:58 2014 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:04:58 <Services> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:05:05 <joanie> #topic W3C updates
14:05:12 <joanie> clown: floor is yours
14:05:20 * clown looks for mop.
14:06:03 <clown> #info The release of the ARIA 1.1 working draft specs and a11y mappings documents is scheduled for today.
14:06:21 <clown> #info I have not seen the official announcement yet of the publication
14:06:44 <clown> #info when it happens, I will send an announcement to the gnome a11y mailing list.
14:07:23 <clown> #info An update re:  aria-checked an list item options in a list box and treeitems in a tree view.
14:08:00 <clown> #info aria-checked has been put back as a state supported by listbox options and treeitems.
14:08:12 * joanie grins quietly
14:08:13 <clown> done, questions?
14:08:28 <joanie> No questions from me
14:08:55 <joanie> Though I was tempted to ask for screenshots of checkable listbox options ;)
14:09:00 <clown> any updates from the aapi meeting I missed, joanie?
14:09:10 <clown> :-)
14:09:11 <joanie> Aha, we didn't have it
14:09:13 <joanie> as per the list
14:09:25 <clown> okay.
14:09:28 <joanie> I emailed saying I could go either way due to a work deadline
14:09:34 <joanie> Bryan did something similar
14:09:41 <joanie> Cynthia came (hadn't read email)
14:09:53 <joanie> but I explained and she used the time to do one of her action items
14:10:02 <clown> whoops (re cynthia)
14:10:02 <joanie> hence no minutes, etc.
14:10:27 <joanie> Yeah. I'll share that log with you privately. But it's no big deal and nothing for us to have done differently
14:10:27 <clown> That's right.  I saw an email about a test case for selection state changes.
14:10:34 <joanie> anyhoo, that's a digression
14:10:36 <clown> But I haven't looked deeply at it.
14:10:55 <joanie> perfect timing!
14:11:00 <magpie> hi jjmarin
14:11:03 <joanie> jjmarin: Fearless leader is delayed
14:11:11 <joanie> so I've re-arranged the meeting agenda
14:11:15 <joanie> just in case he can make it
14:11:46 <joanie> Assuming no other questions/comments on W3C stuff....
14:11:57 <joanie> #topic Marketing Updates
14:11:59 <joanie> :)
14:12:01 <joanie> jjmarin: ?
14:12:39 <jjmarin> #info I've updated thr ATK and AT-SPI entries in the Spanish Wikipedia
14:12:46 <joanie> yay!
14:13:01 * clown couldn't proof those if his life depended on it.
14:13:09 <jjmarin> and that's all I've done so far. I'm too busy lately
14:13:15 <joanie> np jjmarin
14:13:19 <jjmarin> :)
14:13:21 <joanie> We appreciate what you're doing
14:13:37 <joanie> and since there are no issues that need timely management
14:13:40 <joanie> I think it's all good
14:13:59 <joanie> any questions from anyone regarding marketing?
14:14:33 <jjmarin> no from me :P
14:14:39 <joanie> heh
14:15:27 <joanie> It occurs to me that once I finally make some time to work on Orca's ARIA support, that might be a good marketing + W3C opportunity
14:15:49 <jjmarin> wow, sounds very good !
14:15:56 <joanie> but that is a topic for another day
14:16:18 <jjmarin> ok, let me know the details :-)
14:16:22 * joanie nods
14:16:45 <joanie> okay, I guess we need to go back to agenda item 1, which we usually get info from API on
14:16:48 <joanie> but....
14:17:01 <joanie> #topic Progress towards 3.14
14:17:20 <joanie> #info Joanie continues to work on the pre-gsettings-migration changes in Orca.
14:17:32 <joanie> #info She plans to be all GSettings by 3.14
14:17:54 <jhernandez> joanie: quick question
14:17:55 <joanie> #info Probably not in time for a brand new, control-center GUI
14:18:00 <clown> I'm making a note of that, as it will be using for GPII
14:18:13 * joanie waits
14:18:26 <jhernandez> will it be a gsettings backend?
14:18:33 <joanie> not sure yet
14:18:40 <joanie> that is my first planned step
14:18:42 <joanie> just to get it working
14:19:07 <joanie> but with the aim of moving all of this stuff out of Orca so DEs can control it through their control centers, etc.
14:19:16 <joanie> ultimately I'm not sure we'll need backends
14:19:17 <jhernandez> ok ok
14:19:35 <joanie> but I have no plans to eliminate backends as the first step
14:19:41 <joanie> I'm progressing systematically
14:19:42 <joanie> :)
14:19:53 <clown> what, not randomly?
14:19:57 <joanie> heh
14:20:04 <clown> sorry...
14:20:14 <jhernandez> in any case, as clown said, we would like to be aware of it because of the GPII
14:20:15 <joanie> more like: not thermo-nuclear-anihilationy
14:20:19 <jhernandez> xD
14:20:26 <clown> :-]
14:20:27 <joanie> sure
14:20:40 <joanie> but know that this is the long-term plan
14:20:55 <joanie> because in the past, when the official(tm) GNOME settings thang changed
14:21:04 <joanie> GNOME has provided a path to migration
14:21:21 <joanie> and you cannot really run orca in an environment without glib and gsettings
14:21:29 * jhernandez nods
14:21:30 <joanie> AT-SPI2 needs that stuff I believe
14:21:46 <joanie> so the possibility of people running orca where gsettings simply is not present
14:21:51 <joanie> seems very unlikely to me
14:22:10 <joanie> anyhoo
14:22:21 <joanie> does that sufficiently address your questions and concerns?
14:22:24 <jhernandez> yeah, and that's the reason why backends don't have sense anymore
14:22:25 <joanie> wrt gpii?
14:22:27 <jhernandez> ofc
14:22:32 <mgorse> Iirc kde ends up providing glib
14:22:41 <jhernandez> thanks for the explanation
14:23:02 <joanie> jhernandez: but they totally made sense before
14:23:10 <joanie> and thank you for helping with their implementation
14:23:11 <joanie> :)
14:23:11 <mgorse> and, yeah, at-spi requires glib, too
14:23:21 <joanie> mgorse: and gsettings as well, right?>
14:23:54 <mgorse> If you're asking whether kde makes use of gsettings, then I have no idea
14:24:05 <joanie> mgorse: oh, no, at-spi2 I mean
14:24:35 <jhernandez> joanie: yw - thanks to you for giving that chance to me! ;)
14:24:35 <joanie> in other words, is it possible to use at-spi2 without gio?
14:25:29 <jjmarin> in windows, I think you can used the registry as gsettings backend, but that's another story
14:25:29 <mgorse> Hmm; configure.ac checks for it, although Im not sure why off-hand
14:25:47 <joanie> heh
14:25:51 <mgorse> it would be weird to have glib installed without gio
14:26:08 <joanie> yeah, but people do weird crap
14:26:24 <joanie> mgorse: could you verify that gio is (or isn't) required by at-spi2?
14:26:25 <joanie> no rush
14:26:40 <clown> jjmarin, re: windows:  does that mean a developer could use gsettings without having to know how the windows registry works?
14:26:53 <mgorse> I'll look into it, although right now it won't configure without it
14:27:24 <joanie> mgorse: right. But if I removed that check, what would happen when I try to run it? But, again, no rush
14:27:28 <joanie> and I appreciate it
14:27:41 <jjmarin> clown: I was told that, but I haven't checked myself
14:27:49 <joanie> clown: and jjmarin: That would be wacky. But interesting
14:28:04 <clown> interestiing jjmarin.  I will look into it sometime (again for GPII).
14:28:13 <clown> *for GPII
14:28:14 <joanie> clown: maybe you and jhernandez could convince nvda to switch as well
14:28:28 <jhernandez> joanie: good point
14:28:32 <joanie> because imho what you all should be doing in gpii (but I'm guessing you are not):
14:28:39 <joanie> Is not putting settings in a cloud
14:28:40 <clown> joanie:  what does nvda use now?  the registry?  their own settings?
14:28:41 <jjmarin> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/commits-list/2010-September/msg00193.html
14:28:53 <joanie> but establishing a cross-platform standard
14:28:55 <jhernandez> INI-based
14:28:59 <joanie> that would be of more value
14:29:05 <joanie> anyhoo....
14:29:11 <joanie> clown: no idea
14:29:30 <jhernandez> clown: INI-formatted config files
14:29:40 <joanie> point is we don't need cloud-stored settings or thumb-drive-stored settings; we need unified, standardized settings
14:29:52 <joanie> But I could rant about this all day, so I'll stop
14:29:53 <joanie> ;)
14:29:56 <clown> okay, thanks, joanie.  *is always surprised what he learns at these a11y meetings*
14:30:13 <joanie> Do we have anyone who can comment on Wayland?
14:30:22 <joanie> and by comment I mean with new information
14:30:31 <clown> jhernandez, but do the INI config files ultimately go into the registry?  Or does nvda just use them locally?
14:30:42 <joanie> #topic Wayland
14:30:46 * clown shuts up.
14:30:48 <joanie> sorry to be the "bad guy"
14:30:57 * clown about wndows
14:31:11 <joanie> #info Joanie is concerned that we are not addressing the issues related to Wayland and accessibility.
14:31:26 <jhernandez> joanie: wrt wayland, I started the work on Accerciser but not much progress
14:31:35 <joanie> jhernandez: info it please
14:32:43 <jhernandez> #info Accerciser is being ported to Wayland, but there aren't many big progresses
14:33:12 <joanie> is bug 709449 your only (known) issue?
14:33:12 <Services> 04Bug http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709449 major, Normal, ---, accerciser-devel, UNCONFIRMED, Accerciser segfaults when run with the wayland backend
14:33:45 <jhernandez> yeah, that's the relevant one
14:34:12 <joanie> jhernandez: Is it do to the Wnck stuff?
14:34:19 <jhernandez> yup
14:34:26 <joanie> And if so, do you really need Wnck?
14:34:42 <clown> Wnck?
14:34:51 <jhernandez> can't remember right now, but probably not
14:34:54 <joanie> is it just for the fancy red overlay?
14:34:57 <joanie> it *might* be
14:35:07 <jhernandez> yeah, mostly
14:35:15 <joanie> in which case the immediate issue could be solved temporarily just by disabling that for now
14:35:30 <jhernandez> did that but still segfaulting
14:35:36 <joanie> I may have to do that for Orca's little (if at all) used "mouse review" "feature"
14:36:02 <joanie> jhernandez: there are various import-triggered segfaults
14:36:14 <joanie> I think you could systematically eliminate them
14:36:18 <joanie> and disable them
14:36:30 <joanie> until you find them all
14:36:45 <jhernandez> yeah, and by having all them away, start enabling things progressively
14:36:54 <joanie> yeah
14:37:07 <joanie> my guess is it's a wnck and/or gdk/x11 issue
14:37:17 <jhernandez> and
14:37:18 <jhernandez> :)
14:37:32 <joanie> also search in bugzilla for pygobject-triggered segfaults
14:37:36 <joanie> the comments are informative
14:37:45 <joanie> heh re "and"
14:38:01 <joanie> #info Joanie's bigger concern are the AT-SPI2 things
14:38:03 * joanie looks
14:38:16 <joanie> #link https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Wayland
14:38:22 <joanie> API: yo
14:38:31 <API> joanie: yu
14:38:36 <clown> yay
14:38:38 <joanie> I reordered the agenda
14:38:42 <joanie> so we have covered:
14:38:44 <joanie> w3c
14:38:46 <joanie> marketing
14:38:55 <joanie> 3.14 wrt Orca (and gsettings stuff)
14:38:56 <API> ok, you can go on while I read what was happening until I arrive
14:39:02 <API> sorry for arriving late
14:39:03 <joanie> Now I am panicking about Wayland
14:39:14 <joanie> we already talked about accerciser and wnck with jhernandez
14:39:32 <joanie> and right before you came in, I said
14:39:35 <joanie> 16:38:01 <@joanie> #info Joanie's bigger concern are the AT-SPI2 things
14:39:47 <joanie> and I entered the link to
14:39:52 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Wayland
14:40:01 <joanie> I would happily turn this topic over to API and mgorse now
14:40:06 <joanie> because I have no info; just worries
14:40:13 * joanie yields the floor
14:41:01 <jjmarin> that wiki page looks like a war report :-)
14:41:07 <joanie> heh
14:41:09 <jhernandez> xDD
14:41:20 <joanie> An American-led one. All bloody and without progress
14:41:25 <joanie> and lots of "oops!"
14:41:30 <API> ok, so lets resume wayland thing, I will read later
14:41:35 <API> jhernandez, are you talking now?
14:41:36 <joanie> (As an American I can say that)
14:41:52 <jhernandez> I would say to replace "+" with "vs"
14:41:57 <jhernandez> API: nope
14:42:07 <API> ok, then if you don't mind
14:42:20 <API> can I ask for the turn? (said the one that arrived late)
14:42:36 <joanie> 16:40:00 <@joanie> I would happily turn this topic over to API and mgorse now
14:43:16 <API> joanie, ok, I was just confirming that I was not stepping over jhernandez toe
14:43:18 <API> so
14:43:36 <jhernandez> API: at all, go ahead!
14:43:48 <joanie> #chair API
14:43:48 <Services> Current chairs: API joanie
14:43:52 <API> #info due other open fronts (pdf accessibility, gtktreeview flood), API was not taking attention to the mailing list
14:44:01 <API> #info wayland-dev mailing list
14:44:20 <API> #info but in any case, it is worth to mention that the plan (at least the only plan we had)
14:44:27 <API> #info was asking by showing
14:44:48 <API> #info so working on wayland extensions to get the functionality we wanted, based on already existing osk extensions
14:45:04 <API> #info hoping that the security issues would be managed by other people
14:45:15 <API> #info afaik, nobody from the a11y team worked on that
14:45:21 <API> #info that is the current status
14:45:40 <API> #info additionally, API still needs to solve the problem about exposing the accessibility object tree on gnome-shell
14:46:18 <API> #info at-spi2 things, as mentioned before by joanie, are the ones that depends on us writing those wayland extensions
14:46:30 <API> #info this is a high level summary of the current status
14:46:44 <API> well, current status, as far as I know
14:46:52 <API> so, questions, doubts, comments?
14:46:57 <mgorse> right. I've just been meaning to make time for it... The osk extension is working? Last time I looked at the wiki, I couldn't tell if there was code, or just a proposed design
14:47:01 * joanie raises her hand
14:47:32 * joanie waits for mgorse as he is the one who she needs :)
14:47:49 <mgorse> ok, I'm done talking
14:47:59 <API> mgorse, afaik, malit was working on wayland
14:48:03 <joanie> ok, so I would like to be concrete
14:48:05 <joanie> oops
14:48:13 <API> or at least they have a video showing maliit on wayland
14:48:16 <API> so at some point, they worked
14:48:28 * API is done
14:48:36 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709999
14:48:36 <Services> 04Bug 709999: normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Wayland: Mouse event synthesis is not working
14:48:42 <joanie> I need that solved :)
14:48:51 <joanie> Can we identify some concrete steps?
14:48:57 <joanie> doable ones
14:49:06 <joanie> and then assign them and do them?
14:49:12 * joanie yields the floor
14:49:49 <API> I already listed the concrete steps
14:49:51 <API> in any case
14:49:56 <mgorse> in part I've felt like I don't even know where to start because I don't know the code base... Finding the code for malit should be helpful, anyhow
14:50:04 <API> 1. take maliit osk wayland extensions
14:50:17 <API> 1.1 extra points if you get is working
14:50:23 * joanie grins at 1.1
14:50:32 <API> 2. do something similar but for what we want (in this case mouse event synthesis)
14:50:41 <API> 3. use it on at-spi2
14:50:50 <API> 3.1 probably that would require add a backend on at-spi2
14:51:20 <API> mgorse, I think that at some of the previous meetings I put here a link to a specific wayland extension definition
14:51:31 <API> I will look it later
14:51:39 <API> and send it via email to you
14:51:52 <API> so, as joanie already asked for assignment
14:52:03 <mgorse> yeah, I have a page bookmarked with a proposal on their wiki
14:52:22 <API> could we assume that you will take a look to that (if time permits) and I will take a look to the accessible tree object of gnome-shell?
14:52:37 <joanie> at least do 1 and 1.1
14:52:43 <API> extra detail on "if time permits"
14:52:48 <joanie> and maybe a hello-world new extension?
14:52:54 <mgorse> writing myself a note to take some time for it
14:52:58 <joanie> just to learn and identify issues?
14:53:04 <joanie> mgorse: thank you!!!!
14:53:13 <API> joanie, hopefully there are hello-world extensions around
14:53:21 <API> ok, so for minutes sake
14:53:37 <jjmarin> mgorse +1 :-)
14:53:38 <API> #action mgorse will take a look to wayland extensions for accessibility needs
14:53:54 <API> #action API will retake the bug about the non-available accessibility tree on gnome-shell
14:53:57 <API> ah
14:53:58 <API> and
14:54:31 <API> #action API will ping Jasper about the gtktreeview flood bug, in order to know if it will be mitigated on gnome-shell or not, being not=="solved at at-spi2"
14:54:32 <joanie> #info The target/high-priority bug we wish to address through Mike's work is bug 709999 (Mouse event synthesis)
14:54:32 <Services> 04Bug http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709999 normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Wayland: Mouse event synthesis is not working
14:55:21 * joanie feels her blood pressure go down a tad :)
14:55:24 <joanie> thanks API and mgorse
14:55:35 <joanie> I really don't want a repeat of the 3.0 release
14:55:50 <jjmarin> API
14:55:58 <jjmarin> API +1 I mean
14:56:31 <API> it will be also good if I try to compile gnome based on wayland again
14:56:36 <API> last time I tried it failed
14:56:43 <API> well, *I* failed
14:56:44 <joanie> API I've chaired you. And aside from this and 3.14 issues, misc time is all that's left. So feel free to take over.
14:57:10 <API> joanie, oh you are giving me the sweet part of the meeting
14:57:11 <mgorse> Actually, the link I had bookmmarked was on wiki.maliit.org, which isn't resolving right now. I should google it later
14:57:16 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
14:57:27 <API> mgorse, will try to find the link to the code later, and send you an email
14:57:34 <mgorse> ok
14:57:37 <API> in any case, as in miscellaneous time
14:57:43 <API> something miscellaneous to say?
14:57:47 <joanie> API and maybe add it to the a11y wayland wiki page?
14:57:50 <joanie> for future ref?
14:58:04 <jhernandez> API: quick question
14:58:08 <joanie> you guys can resume talking about gsettings on windows ;)
14:58:19 <clown> hee hee
14:58:20 <jhernandez> is there anything a11y-related planned for guadec?
14:58:36 <jjmarin> maliit.org is down
14:59:50 <joanie> I'm not API, but....
15:00:09 <joanie> There is an Evince hackfest and those of us working on EVince a11y will be at that
15:00:16 <joanie> I don't think we'll have a BoF
15:00:20 <jhernandez> ok
15:00:21 <API> yes, in theory I will be there
15:00:27 <API> there==evince hackfest
15:00:27 <joanie> API needs to leave before the BoF days (right?)
15:00:30 <API> about bof
15:00:32 <API> joanie, yes
15:00:39 <API> this year I will leave guadec earlier
15:00:43 <API> so if bofs, as usual
15:00:46 <API> are after the core-days
15:00:48 <jjmarin> I think I will be in the Evince hackfest too
15:00:49 <API> I will not be there
15:00:52 <joanie> and if I have to be there before guadec, staying through the bof days is hard for me
15:01:00 <API> jjmarin, btw, you never mentioned that did work on evince
15:01:04 <jhernandez> ok ok
15:01:10 <API> I saw your name on some of the source files ;)
15:01:26 <jjmarin> comic backend, easy stuff :-)
15:01:28 <joanie> API he did the reverse contast support which keeps my eyes from bleeding
15:01:39 <joanie> I like it when my eyes don't bleed
15:01:42 <joanie> silly me
15:01:47 <clown> jjmarin is humble
15:01:54 <jhernandez> was curious - probably I'll attend a couple of days, strasbourg is not too far from here
15:01:56 <API> my memory is limited, or my attention weak, because I didn't remember that detail
15:02:07 <jjmarin> yes, I forgot that super feature :-)
15:02:33 <joanie> if API had photophobia for a day, his memory would improve ;)
15:03:12 <jjmarin> heh
15:03:26 <joanie> jjmarin: Comic accessibility!
15:03:29 <joanie> I'm not joking
15:03:36 <joanie> we should chat about that
15:03:39 <API> jjmarin, cosmic accessibility!!
15:03:55 <clown> I see a paper in The Psychological Bulletin:  "Improving Memory Through Photophobia"
15:03:59 <joanie> isn't there w3c comic related stuff?
15:04:05 * joanie grins at clown
15:04:15 <magpie> it's a reaction to dilated pupils in daylight.
15:04:22 <jjmarin> :)
15:04:53 <joanie> anyhoo, since it's 4 past....
15:04:58 <API> well, this was misc enough
15:05:01 <API> and we are over time
15:05:03 <jhernandez> xD
15:05:06 <API> as joanie was saying
15:05:10 <jjmarin> cosmic sounds plausible too :-)
15:05:23 <API> so I was not stepping over jhernandez's toe but on joanie's toe
15:05:23 <API> so
15:05:24 <magpie> at night time the pupils dialate to help people see more but sometimes the brain gets calibrated wrong and misinterprets things which means the pupils dialate and take too much light in when they shouldn't
15:05:44 * API waits a signal to finish the meeting
15:05:50 <joanie> #endmeeting