14:05:59 <API> #startmeeting
14:06:00 <Services> Meeting started Thu May 15 14:05:59 2014 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:06:00 <Services> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:06:40 <API> #topic Progress towards 3.14
14:07:01 <API> #info this week was somewhat slow in terms of news
14:07:26 <API> #info but in order to refresh things, plans for this cycle includes stuff like
14:07:33 <API> #info evince improvements
14:08:05 <API> #info advance on implement APIs deprecated on 3.10 (focus and text) and 3.12 (value)
14:08:29 <API> #info for the value, is right now only supported on atk, so first step is giving the support at at-spi2
14:09:01 <API> #info for the case of Wayland, nothing new yet, but fwiw (as last week I forgot to mention), I should work on this bug:
14:09:04 * API looking number
14:10:02 <API> oh true, I didn't submit a bug yet
14:10:08 <API> sorry
14:10:18 * clown an imaginary number?
14:10:32 <joanie> ba-dum-chhhh
14:10:42 <API> #info right now gnome-shell doesn't have ATK support under wayland, as it is loading gtk+ atk support first
14:11:05 <API> #info API sent a email about a solution to both gtk-devel and clutter, without no answer
14:11:31 <API> #info so instead of waiting for the bless, now the plan is implement it, and waiting the feedback for the solution
14:11:41 <joanie> :)
14:11:44 <API> so people will say "your patch sucks" instead of "your proposal suck"
14:11:52 <API> and thats all from my side
14:12:19 <joanie> #info Joanie is doing the next bit of The Great Orca Rewrite.
14:12:46 <joanie> #info Joanie also noticed that we need to ping toolkit developers to implement new and changed ATK API
14:12:54 <joanie> (example: AtkTableCell)
14:12:59 <joanie> done
14:13:11 <API> ah true, I forgot that one
14:13:25 <API> fwiw, I also think that atktablecell needs at-spi2 support, but not 100% sure
14:13:30 <joanie> already there
14:13:48 <joanie> I guess I can test it with webkit
14:14:00 <joanie> but not in LibreOffice (amongst other places)
14:14:14 <mgorse> Thanks for the reminder about values. I'd completely forgotten about them
14:15:39 <API> mgorse, no problem
14:15:52 <API> I plan to do the patches for the support of AtkValue on at-spi2
14:15:54 <API> if you don't mind
14:16:23 <mgorse> alright; I'll wait for a patch if you want to write one
14:16:31 <API> ok
14:16:39 <API> so having said so, if you don't mind (2), I will move to next topic
14:16:46 <API> #topic W3C updates
14:16:52 <API> joanie, clown ?
14:16:54 <API> your topic
14:16:58 <joanie> clown: you have any?
14:17:09 <clown> I just got back, so I'm catching up.
14:17:13 <joanie> ok
14:17:15 <clown> I can think of one.
14:17:22 <joanie> me too, but go ahead please
14:17:41 <clown> #info  There is a plan to publish the ARIA 1.1 documents as working drafts by the end of the month.
14:17:47 <clown> that's all I've got.
14:17:51 <joanie> :)
14:18:25 <joanie> #info At the last ARIA meeting there was some interesting discussion on supporting "current" items.
14:18:45 <joanie> #info Note that "current" does not mean "focused" or "selected" (at least not necessarily)
14:18:53 <joanie> #info Ditto for "active"
14:19:11 <joanie> #info Use cases include things like what step you are on in a process
14:19:26 <joanie> #info Also the current item in a group of breadcrumbs or links
14:19:41 <joanie> #info There was much discussion and thought, but no conclusion yet.
14:20:03 <joanie> #info Joanie doesn't know yet if new API will be wanted or needed.
14:20:15 <joanie> and that's because we don't know the conclusions yet
14:20:16 <joanie> :)
14:20:18 <API> hmmm
14:20:21 <clown> I like to think of it as the "you-are-here" property.
14:20:29 <API> well, I hope that if they introduce
14:20:33 <API> the "current" concept
14:20:38 <API> they properly define it
14:20:48 <joanie> that is why clown and I attend meetings :)
14:20:52 <API> for example, on gtk there are several issues with the "focused" and "selected" concepts
14:20:54 <joanie> to be sure we aren't suprirsed
14:21:04 <API> as sometimes are the same, sometimes are different
14:21:09 * joanie nods
14:21:19 <API> some selection-changed events trigger focus-changed events etc
14:21:27 * joanie nods again
14:21:29 * clown nods as well
14:21:36 <joanie> bobbleheads!
14:21:38 <joanie> :)
14:21:54 <API> I'm still not sure what would be the different between a selected-item-changed and a current-item-changed event would be
14:22:02 * API shrugs and will wait for the final conclusion
14:22:16 <clown> I'm not sure an event is involved or needed.
14:22:21 <clown> but I have to think more about it.
14:22:21 <joanie> I want one
14:22:40 <clown> a bobblehead?
14:22:44 <clown> sorry...
14:22:45 <joanie> and we need pointers (i.e. a relation) telling us what it is current with respect to
14:22:48 <joanie> heh
14:22:49 <joanie> no sir
14:23:08 <joanie> if the current (but not focusable and not selectable) item changes
14:23:11 <API> well, you can forget the event (for now)
14:23:19 <joanie> Orca wants to say "Step foo!"
14:23:21 <API> but the difference of "selected item" and "current item"
14:23:25 <API> right now, seems tricky to me
14:23:41 <clown> joanie, any discussions of real live uses cases?
14:23:43 <joanie> API imagine a graphic that displays progress
14:23:44 <API> based on the one-liner summary from joanie, of course
14:23:56 <API> k
14:24:08 <joanie> 1 basic info 2 detailed crap 3 yay you're done
14:24:14 <clown> one of the guys from Deque (sp?) had one.
14:24:24 <clown> but, perhaps that's beyond this meeting...
14:24:35 <joanie> probably so (beyond)
14:24:39 <joanie> so I'll stop for now
14:24:51 <joanie> suffice it to say that this is of benefit API
14:25:11 <clown> Well, here's one:  Igalia's web site (http://www.igalia.com/).
14:25:25 <API> never heard about that one
14:25:39 <clown> Looka at the bar at the top:  "Home" "Services" "Areas", etd.
14:25:43 <clown> *etc.
14:25:47 <joanie> that's another case
14:25:50 <API> aha
14:25:52 <API> if you start
14:25:52 <joanie> use case
14:25:56 <joanie> but not the one I care about ;)
14:25:58 <API> "home" is the selected item
14:26:09 <clown> Note that one of them is highlighted, visually cueing where you are.
14:26:41 <clown> all I'm doing is pointing out one of the use cases.
14:27:26 <API> clown, yes, it is what I'm saying, just being at the home page
14:27:30 <API> "home" is the one highlighted
14:27:35 <joanie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3332724/styling-multi-step-form
14:27:50 <clown> and "home" is the "current" one.
14:27:51 <joanie> those Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 could be a single image
14:28:01 <joanie> or divs
14:28:10 <clown> yes, joanie, that's another use case:  what is the current step?
14:28:11 <API> clown, but why not the "selected" one?
14:28:21 <joanie> clown: that's the one I care about
14:28:31 <joanie> API selected is for things like menus
14:28:34 <clown> API, I see no "aria-selected" property on those items.
14:28:35 <joanie> list boxes
14:29:05 <clown> It is a unordered list with a "menu" id, so the designer thought of it as a menu.
14:29:13 <clown> Looks sort of like  tablist.
14:29:16 <clown> but, I'm not sure.
14:29:36 <joanie> API also selected is with respect to the parent container
14:29:40 <API> joanie,  but for your breadcrumb example, for me "step 3" is the selected breadcrumb
14:29:45 <joanie> current can be with respect to, say, a page
14:29:56 <joanie> When should Orca say "step 3"?
14:30:07 <joanie> Orca sees TONS of state-changed:selected events
14:30:15 <joanie> for items which are not focused
14:30:20 <joanie> items == parent containers
14:30:28 <joanie> and Orca deliberately ignores them as noise
14:30:32 <API> ok, probably the problem is that I'm being too loose with the meaning of "selected"
14:30:37 <joanie> current Orca would want to present
14:30:40 <joanie> when it changes
14:30:44 <joanie> when a user does whereAmI
14:30:47 <joanie> etc etc etc
14:30:55 <joanie> i.e. don't be dissing current :P
14:31:07 <joanie> but when we get closer to an actual consensus, we'll update you
14:31:15 <API> ok, thanks
14:31:16 <joanie> for input on ATK implications
14:31:30 <joanie> right now we're still fighting amongst ourselves ;)
14:31:33 <API> anyway I was thinking on closing the debate, for being too many details for this meeting
14:31:37 <API> in spite of me opening the box
14:31:39 <joanie> sorry
14:31:40 <API> so having said so
14:31:49 <API> more questions, doubts and/or comments here?
14:31:57 <API> here==in this topic
14:32:02 <clown> none from me.
14:32:06 <joanie> i'm done
14:32:09 <joanie> sorry for going long
14:32:43 * joanie whispers to clown: Next week is annotations + current. Should be fun. ;)
14:33:07 * clown whispers back:  it's a federal holiday here
14:33:14 <joanie> heh
14:33:16 * clown enjoy yourselves.
14:33:36 <API> #topic Marketing
14:33:43 <API> hmm, although jjmarin is not here
14:33:55 <API> so unless someone is against I will skip this topic
14:34:54 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
14:35:04 <API> someone has something not scheduled to say today?
14:35:13 <joanie> current?
14:35:18 * joanie hides
14:35:20 <clown> nooooooooo
14:35:31 <clown> ac or dc, joanie?
14:35:38 <joanie> ha
14:36:01 <joanie> I don't mind ending early. Much hacking to do.
14:36:25 <clown> yes, me too.  don't ever go on vacation.  the work just piles up for when you get back.
14:36:38 <joanie> clown: this is why I don't. :)
14:37:03 <API> ok, I get the indirect
14:37:07 <API> so thanks for coming
14:37:08 <joanie> heh
14:37:12 <API> and thanks for all the info
14:37:16 <API> #endmeeting