15:05:43 <API> #startmeeting
15:05:43 <Services> Meeting started Thu Mar 13 15:05:43 2014 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:05:43 <Services> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:05:54 <API> #topic Progress towards 3.12
15:06:17 <API> #info API asked for a string freeze break request. It seems that will be granted
15:06:31 <API> #info fwiw, next release of ATK will include the revamped atkvalue
15:06:54 <API> #info next cycle could be started by bringing it to at-spi2 and to start to be implemented by ATK implementors
15:07:15 <API> #info additionally API is working on some evince bugs, hopefully they will be included on 3.12 release
15:07:17 <API> (done)
15:07:39 * joanie wants to hear about mgorse's work on Evolution
15:07:48 <joanie> how unbroken might it be?
15:08:10 <mgorse> #info mgorse got some accessibility refactoring committed to evolution, so that the custom classes actually work again
15:08:36 <mgorse> #info A couple of bugs that Joanie reported have also been fixed recently, so hopefully evolution accessibility will be improved some in 3.12, but it needs some testing
15:08:37 <mgorse> done
15:08:48 <joanie> way to go mgorse!!
15:08:58 <mgorse> I was actually surprised that Milan committed my patch this late in the cycle, given how last-minute I was to respond to his last review
15:09:33 <joanie> #info Joanie is keeping Orca stable for now. She, like Piñeiro, is working on some Evince accessibility issues.
15:09:57 <joanie> #info Based on the work being done in Evolution accessibility, she will do the testing Mike mentioned and update Orca accordingly.
15:10:13 <joanie> done
15:10:30 <mgorse> One thing I noticed is that Orca says "grayed" a lot in the calendawr. Might be an accessible somewhere missing some state
15:10:45 <mgorse> I also hear "finished loading" a lot in the calendar. I'm guessing we're getting document-type events from webkit
15:10:57 <joanie> I can filter the latter out
15:11:02 <joanie> ditto on the grayed.
15:11:13 <API> well, that is understandable, taking into accout that the webkit thing is somewhat new
15:11:24 <API> and never tested for different reasons (that you were solving)
15:11:24 <mgorse> but probably not worth trying to deep-dive right now
15:11:50 <API> mgorse, joanie ok thanks for the report
15:11:57 <API> anyone else? comments, questions?
15:12:29 * clown waves at jhernandez :-)
15:12:39 <clown> nothing from me, API
15:12:55 <API> jhernandez, something new about accerciser for 3.12?
15:14:01 <jhernandez> API: hey
15:14:05 <jhernandez> yes
15:14:17 <jhernandez> I've been fixing the critical stuff
15:14:31 <joanie> \o/
15:14:34 <jhernandez> reviewed a few patches from clown, joanie, etc
15:14:59 <jhernandez> as a brief resume ...
15:15:49 <jhernandez> now we have accerciser in shape
15:16:04 <API> jhernandez, pretty #infos please?
15:16:19 <jhernandez> sure
15:18:35 <jhernandez> # info jhernandez has fixed the Accerciser's more critical stuff. Fixed bugs, update it to use new APIs, updated some plugins, etc. The only remaining thing is wayland, which support is supposed to be added during 3.13 cycle
15:18:41 <jhernandez> #info jhernandez has fixed the Accerciser's more critical stuff. Fixed bugs, update it to use new APIs, updated some plugins, etc. The only remaining thing is wayland, which support is supposed to be added during 3.13 cycle
15:18:44 <jhernandez> better
15:18:56 <API> jhernandez, ok thanks
15:19:02 <jhernandez> yw
15:19:18 <API> so if nobody is against, I will move to next topic
15:19:25 <API> 3
15:19:26 <API> 2
15:19:29 <API> 1
15:19:31 <jhernandez> joanie: btw, I also added ipython autocompletion
15:19:34 <jjmarin> is there anything new about the PDF support for 3.12 ? [in case you haven't said at the beginning of the meeting]
15:19:35 <jhernandez> :)
15:19:46 <API> jjmarin, we mentioned that we are working on bugs
15:19:54 <API> we==joanie+myself
15:20:06 <jjmarin> ok, thanks, I'll read later on the logs
15:20:08 <API> ok
15:20:21 <API> #topic W3C updates
15:20:24 <API> clown, joanie ?
15:20:32 * joanie defers to clown
15:20:43 <clown> okay.  collecting thoughts.
15:21:00 <clown> #info Main topic of dsicussion this week was the addition of a role description attribute
15:21:10 <clown> #info It is a human readable string giving a description of the role.
15:21:21 <clown> #info It's useful where neither ARIA nor the a11y API has a role for the situation.
15:21:32 <clown> #info An example is the html5 <video> element.  Currently that is mapped to "group" in a11y APIs
15:21:54 <clown> #info If the author added a role description such as "video", that would be closer to what the element really is, and …
15:22:04 <clown> #info an AT could provide that additional information.
15:22:15 <clown> #info AXAPI has an AXRoleDesription property, already.
15:22:27 <clown> #info no decision has been made; it's still under discussion.
15:22:36 <clown> done. questions?
15:22:49 <API> so the idea is allow web authors to put any name they find reasonable?
15:23:07 * joanie coughs ATK_ROLE_VIDEO ATK_ROLE_AUDIO
15:23:07 <clown> yes.  To help clarify the role.
15:23:22 * clown gesundheit, joanie
15:23:25 <joanie> :)
15:23:31 <API> is just my opinion, but for me this is a problem of not having enough roles (or subroles)
15:23:42 <clown> right API.
15:23:54 <API> allowing "others" to extend roles
15:24:04 <API> in ATK showed that was not a really good idea
15:24:17 <API> for example, it was supposed to be temporal fixes until new roles came to ATK
15:24:30 <API> but for example, Libreoffice had their custom roles for years
15:24:40 <API> afaik, nobody from libreoffice asked for new roles
15:24:41 <clown> interesting.  If you could summarize why it failed in ATK, that would be useful information for the aria working group.
15:24:44 <mgorse> evolution has a couple, too. I guess I should file bugs to add them next cycle
15:24:49 <API> they were pretty happy with their "temporal" solution
15:25:00 <API> yes, evolution is another example of the same issue
15:25:42 <API> clown, summarizing on ... a email, blog post, tweet?
15:26:07 <clown> email.  Perhaps joanie could send it to the pfwg-public list?
15:26:21 <joanie> or API could
15:26:29 <clown> sure.
15:26:34 * clown looks up the issue.
15:26:35 <API> btw, about that
15:26:36 <joanie> then it would be someone else besides Joanie saying "really, please don't"
15:26:40 <API> I tried to subscribe to that list
15:26:58 <API> but it seems that lacks an automatic-registration process
15:27:03 <joanie> I did ping Michael Cooper about that API
15:27:06 <joanie> but he's been crazy-busy
15:27:10 <API> ah ok
15:27:11 <API> thanks
15:27:27 <clown> well, joanie, you could present as "a discussion I had with the gnome a11y group"
15:27:40 <joanie> true
15:27:54 <joanie> or for that matter you could
15:28:06 <joanie> since I, during the call, already made my feelings known ;)
15:28:23 <clown> Yes, I could.  Okay.
15:28:29 <clown> the issue is:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636.
15:28:38 <clown> but only members can access that link.
15:28:43 <clown> :-(
15:29:46 <API> I can see it
15:29:47 <API> thanks
15:30:10 <API> hmm, so it is strange
15:30:11 <clown> so, I could give myself an action to take whatever API writes up and submit it to the aria group on behalf of the gnome a11y team.
15:30:19 <API> it is not only about adding an roledescription
15:30:25 <API> aria-roledescription
15:30:37 <API> but they are also suggesting which aria-roledescription to use ...
15:30:52 <joanie> ?
15:30:58 <clown> well, those are examples.
15:30:59 <joanie> those are examples
15:31:01 <joanie> exactly
15:31:33 <API> ok, probably Im extrapolating too much from the "video might default to"
15:31:43 <clown> I think they are meant to be descriptive, not mandatory.
15:32:02 <API> ok
15:32:04 <clown> note, though, since it's human readable, there is an localization issue.
15:32:54 <API> #action API will wrote a email "Extending roles: why failed on ATK, and why we deprecated them"
15:32:57 <clown> where "it"= the role descriptions string.
15:33:04 <clown> *description
15:33:12 <API> localization issue==who will localize it?
15:33:31 <API> that's another of the problems that extending roles had on ATK
15:33:52 <API> was a hot potato that in the end, nobody eat
15:34:08 <clown> yes, that's part of it.  But also, that it needs to be localized is the main issue.  The actual roles are already localized by the a11y API.
15:34:28 <clown> no tongues were burned?
15:34:43 <joanie> no, but some were bit
15:34:44 <joanie> ;)
15:35:07 <API> clown, no tongues were burned, because as I said, nobody wanted to eat it ;)
15:35:25 <API> in any case, I think that this is enough potato-talking
15:35:31 <clown> #action Joseph will take API's email and submit to the ARIA working group on behalf of the gnome a11y group
15:35:32 <API> more questions, comments, doubts?
15:35:47 <clown> french fries, anyone?
15:36:03 <jjmarin> :-)
15:36:30 <API> I guess that that is a "no"
15:36:33 <API> so
15:36:36 <API> #topic Marketing
15:36:38 <jhernandez> clown: "belgium" fries! :P
15:36:47 <clown> lol
15:36:51 <API> just in time
15:36:53 <jjmarin> #info we have the drafts for updating the ATK and AT-SPI2 entries for wikipedia in piratepad http://piratepad.net/V33eU1E2ZN and http://piratepad.net/5dT0fHzENH . Suggestions, corrections and references to contrast the information are more than welcome
15:37:03 <API> Marketing topic starts, and jhernandez promotes belgium fries
15:37:24 <jjmarin> "belgium" fries are accesible :-)
15:37:32 <jhernandez> API: sorry xD
15:37:37 <jjmarin> I think clown likes good literature, because he has the drafts opened for a while :-P
15:37:38 <joanie> belgian waffles are tasty
15:37:50 <jjmarin> #info I added the numbers of bugs related to the entries for the release notes https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointEleven/ReleaseNotes#What.27s_new_in_accessibility .
15:38:06 <jjmarin> #info So far, it seems we are going to be shy in the release notes for 3.12. Orca refactoring and improved PDF support could be cool additions. :-)
15:38:17 <joanie> jjmarin: another one *might* be evolution
15:38:18 <jjmarin> done
15:38:20 <joanie> you missed that
15:38:26 <joanie> but we won't know for a few days
15:38:32 <jjmarin> I wasn't sure about evolution
15:38:34 <joanie> but mgorse got some fixes in
15:38:36 <clown> jjmarin, they are a fabulous read.
15:38:37 * clown hasn't read them yet.
15:38:43 <jjmarin> that could be great
15:38:47 <joanie> and milan(?sp) did too
15:38:48 <mgorse> along with Milan
15:38:48 <API> #action API will review those ATK/AT-SPI entries, but will take some time due 3.12 approaching
15:39:04 <joanie> Orca will likely need some corresponding work to support that (or support it better)
15:39:10 <jjmarin> mgorse made a big a11y patch for evolution
15:39:12 <joanie> so that's on my todo list for the weekend
15:39:13 <API> #info probably we are going to push some of the release notes just before of the dealine, due some bugs still wip
15:39:33 <jjmarin> mgorse deserve the title of patcher of the month :-)
15:39:38 * joanie nods re release notes and being "just under the wire"
15:40:55 * API realizes that for some reason, joanie found better english words to explain stuff
15:41:06 <clown> does pirate pad keep revisions?
15:41:30 <jjmarin> I think it has when you save a document
15:41:58 <jjmarin> now I have revision 2 of AT-SPI
15:42:08 <clown> with a lot of 'd".
15:42:21 <jjmarin> yes
15:42:42 <clown> they are gone.
15:43:09 <clown> #action Joseph will try to review jjmarin's ATK and AT-SPI documents and add suggestions.  But at his leisure.
15:43:27 <jjmarin> great ! have fun !
15:43:30 <jjmarin> :-)
15:43:48 <API> ok, so
15:43:54 <API> questions, doubts, more comments?
15:45:24 <jjmarin> fries time then, before they get cool
15:45:27 <API> #topic "Miscellaneous Time"
15:45:38 <API> so, someone wants to add something not scheduled yet?
15:46:10 <jhernandez> joanie: waffels are delicious, but I still prefer the beer
15:46:11 <joanie> just a quick FYI mostly for jhernandez
15:46:13 <jhernandez> :)
15:46:14 <joanie> heh
15:46:27 <joanie> so it may be a case of "rawhide eats babies"
15:46:36 <joanie> but in rawhide / F21-to-be
15:46:47 <joanie> accerciser's ipython console doesn't work (no prompt)
15:46:53 <jhernandez> mmmmmmm
15:46:54 <joanie> I haven't had time to look into it
15:46:57 <joanie> (sorry!)
15:47:01 <jhernandez> no prob
15:47:04 <joanie> and maybe it's just the unstable environment
15:47:08 <jhernandez> which IPython version?
15:47:13 <joanie> but if you have time to do a vm for f21....
15:47:15 <joanie> lemme look
15:47:25 <joanie> 13.2
15:47:28 <joanie> uh
15:47:30 <joanie> 0.13.2
15:48:36 <jhernandez> is Fedora including 0.* versions of ipython?
15:48:53 <joanie> $ ipython --version
15:48:53 <joanie> 0.13.2
15:48:56 * joanie shrugs
15:49:10 <jhernandez> ok ok
15:49:17 <joanie> anyhoo, it's merely a heads-up
15:49:20 <joanie> if you have spare time
15:49:26 <joanie> and with the "rawhide" disclaimer
15:49:33 <jhernandez> I'm on 2.0.0-dev
15:49:39 <joanie> I need to hack on evince, orca+evo, etc.
15:49:55 <joanie> but if I finish that and you've not had time, I'll debug it
15:50:03 <jhernandez> ok
15:50:04 <API> are those ipython stuff worty for some #info, or are just too vague?
15:50:06 <jhernandez> anyway
15:50:09 <API> *worthy
15:50:09 <jhernandez> look for ipython3
15:50:14 <joanie> i can info it
15:50:23 <jhernandez> (in the repos)
15:50:49 <joanie> #info Joanie (who is using Fedora Rawhide, in all its completely-unstable glory) has discovered that the Accerciser iPython console is no longer working.
15:51:03 <joanie> #info Joanie or Javi will look into it as time permits
15:51:09 <joanie> (done)
15:51:12 <joanie> jhernandez: ok
15:51:17 <jhernandez> joanie: thanks
15:51:22 <API> ok, thanks
15:51:27 <API> so closing meeting?
15:51:37 <jhernandez> IIRC, Fedora used to have different rpms for ipython
15:51:45 <joanie> $ ipython3 --version
15:51:45 <joanie> 0.13.2
15:51:50 <jhernandez> ok
15:51:57 <jhernandez> ok ok
15:52:00 <jhernandez> thakns
15:52:12 <joanie> thank you. and sorry for not (yet) having time to debug
15:52:15 <jhernandez> will research a bit when I have time
15:52:18 * joanie nods
15:52:30 * joanie hates the end-of-cycle oh-noes rush
15:52:42 <jhernandez> joanie: nope, thanks to you! you're always there, at the bleeding edge!
15:52:43 <jhernandez> :P
15:52:53 <joanie> dripping all over the floor even
15:53:10 <joanie> i should buy red carpet
15:53:38 <clown> or white.  it will turn red eventually.
15:53:46 <joanie> true
15:53:55 <joanie> anyhoo, yes API you can close the meeting ;)
15:53:59 <API> #closemeeting
15:54:01 <joanie> the minions are being restless
15:54:03 <API> #endmeeting